Facing a team like the Packers has a way of shining a bright light on every weakness a team has. The Raider failings were glaring last Sunday. The Raiders knew it would take their best effort to even remain competitive in this game. If their best effort was what they brought, that is the worst news of all.
A game like this will leave you dumbfounded. How do you break down an overall ass whooping? I am thankful I am not on the Raiders' coaching staff, because they may be wishing they could just throw this game tape in the incinerator and try to forget it ever happened.
But for posterity's sake, it is always important to remember days like this in the hopes that in the remembrance, you can ensure it doesn't happen again. After all, you can't get to where you want to go without knowing where you've been.
There are a few Ballers this week but keep in mind that most of these guys would barely make the list most weeks.
This was by no means one of his better games this season. But as the Raiders continued to hand him the ball, he continued to churn out yards even in a lost cause. Much of his yards were gained after the game was lost. But I give him credit for being the Raiders' workhorse once again. He has been one of the few dependable players on this team. Staying healthy despite his heavy workload is an accomplishment all in itself, and one that this Raiders team has come to appreciate. Bush has carried the ball 83 times in the last three games. In this game he had 23 carries for 78 yards and a touchdown. He also had 3 catches for 19 yards to take him over 100 yards from scrimmage on the day. On an offense that couldn't get out of its own way all day, that was a fine effort.
He too saw most of his production after the game was out of hand. But there is something to be said for not quitting. In the third quarter, with the Raiders down 34-7, Bryant came alive. He started the drive by shooting into the backfield to tackle the runner for a loss of four yards. The next play he sacked Aaron Rodgers for a five yard loss. The Packers were held to a field goal on the drive, which in this game was a small victory. Two plays into the Raiders' next series, Marcel Reece would fumble and the Packers would return it for a touchdown. Then on the extra point try, Bryant got up to block it. Yeah, it was just one point but there was no let up in Desmond. Earlier in the game, he pressured Rodgers into throwing the ball away on third down and the Packers would settle for a field goal. Bryant finished second on the team in tackles (4-0) to go along with his sack.
Boss had five catches on the day for 43 yards and a touchdown. When the Raiders started to move on offense, he was a big part of it. Late in the second quarter, with the Raiders down 31-0, they mounted a drive to try and score before half time. The second play of the drive, Boss caught a seven yard pass. Two plays later, he had a nice pass block on a blitzing Charles Woodson and Palmer was able to scramble for 11 yards. Next play, Boss caught another pass, this time for six yards. A few plays later, he caught an 11 yard pass to put the Raiders in scoring position at the 14 yard line. The drive would end on the next play when Palmer tried to force it to Boss in the end zone and it was intercepted. Boss would get his touchdown catch, though. It came late in the fourth quarter to give the Raiders 16 points on the day.
After being injured the first part of the year, Murphy is finally making his way back into the Raiders' offense. It makes perfect sense. Just two seasons ago, he looked like a star in the making. He has great hands and runs great routes. He should be getting the ball more. He would see the ball five times in this game and catch four of them for 70 yards. He also took an end around for 10 yards. His second pass of the day was a high ball over the middle by Palmer that got Murphy nailed by the defender while he was in the air. He was slow to get up, but when the Raiders got the ball back, he had his best series of the day. Murphy started with a 13 yard catch to put the Raiders in Packer territory at the 40 yard line. A few plays later, the Raiders were forced to go for it on fourth and 12, and Murphy hauled in a 17 yard catch. Then after a penalty backed the Raiders up to the 30 yard line, he caught his longest catch of the day. It went for 24 yards to put the Raiders in first and goal at the six yard line. They would score a touchdown two plays later.
McClain was hard to put in either category in this game. But his involvement in the game could not go unmentioned. His play was night and day from first half to second half. The Raiders gave up 31 points in the first half so we'll start there.
At the end of the Packers' second drive, he was out of position and late to correct on a swing pass that put the Packers at the Raiders' 4 yard line. Then he and Jerome Boyd were supposed to be covering the two tight ends. Boyd was caught in space between the long man and the short while McClain chose neither and the result was a touchdown. On the next Packer drive, he was late on a 12 yard run and late again on a 7 yard run on the next play. Two plays later he gave up a 7 yard catch.
It was a different story for McClain in the second half. He ended the Packers' first drive of the second half with a sack on third and two to force a field goal. He would then end the Packers last three drives. The first with a tackle for loss resulting in their final score on a field goal. The second was a sack for a safety. Then he finished their final drive when he tackled the runner short of the first down on third and 12.
Yet again, after this loss, we hear players saying that their teammates need to "do their jobs." But that doesn't cut it in a loss like this. There were two things that became clear pretty quickly in this game: 1) The Raiders' big plan was to put Mike Mitchell in the game and play nickel against Rodgers, and 2) Aaron Rodgers was watching for it and calling for a run whenever he saw it. For the Packers it worked like a charm. The Packers' first possession started near midfield after a Palmer interception. On the second play, Rodgers saw the matchup he wanted and called for a run. His offensive line opened a crease and the only defender there to try and plug the hole was Mitchell. He was easily blocked and Ryan Grant ran 47 yards for a touchdown. It was the first touchdown run over 20 yards the Packers had since late in the 2009 season, when the Super Bowl wasn't even a twinkle in the Packers' eye.
Another thing we have figured out this season is just how well Rodgers performs when the corner or safety blitzes. So of course, on the next Packer drive, Bresnahan calls for a safety blitz. Rodgers instantly threw to the uncovered receiver for a 12 yard gain. Two plays later, they had their second touchdown.
The Packers' next touchdown came on a 37 yard bomb. The Packers rushed to the line and knew they had caught the Raider defenders trying to sub out and would have a free shot at the end zone. The Raiders were called for 12 men on the field, but it didn't matter because the Packers scored a TD.
The Packers would get another interception and were quickly back in business at the six yard line. Then in second and goal from the six yard line, Rodgers sees Mitchell playing in the box and calls an audible for a run and touchdown.
In the second half, the "game plan" for the defense was to play zone. The result was a 27 yard catch to start the third quarter resulting in a field goal and then another 27 yard catch in which the receiver was so wide open it was impossible to tell who was supposed to be covering him. It too resulted in a field goal. The Packers took Rodgers out before the end of the third quarter. They probably started to feel sorry for the Raiders.
I let Hue off the hook last week in a loss to the Dolphins, though perhaps I shouldn't have. Last week I credited the Dolphins' solid defense for the Raiders' play last week. But it has become clear that the Raiders just haven't been ready. Hue likes to say that after every loss as a way of being vague about the issues that face this team. He also does it so that when his team is actually truthfully not prepared properly, it won't seem out of the ordinary that he says so. But this team was so clearly not ready to play on Sunday. They weren't prepared the week before either. They just don't look like they are putting together a game plan that focuses on taking advantage of the opponent's weaknesses. The Packers have weaknesses. You may not have known it from watching this game, but the Packers don't have a great defense. They can be had. The Giants put up 35 points on them last week and it was only by a miraculous Rodgers drive in the waning seconds that the Packers were able to pull out the win. The Giants are a playoff level team. The Raiders are showing that they are not. And it starts with Hue Jackson.
Palmer threw four interceptions in this game. Three of them were his own fault or at least partially his own fault. The other interception, he was hit on the arm. But that was the final offensive play of the game for the Raiders and long after the real damage had been done.
Palmer got the Raiders' day started off terribly. After he had led the team to the Packers' 42 yard line—just out of Janikowski field goal range—he blew it. He got a little pressure off the edge and escaped it but instead of setting his feet and making a good throw or simply throwing the ball away, he lobbed it right into the arms of a Packer linebacker. The Packers took the short field and scored a touchdown.
The next drive, he had the Raiders moving again. But after a few penalties had the Raiders in third and 25, he didn't lead Darrius Heyward-Bey on his throw and it fell incomplete. If he had hit DHB in stride it may have been a big gainer.
Two series later, with the Raiders in third and six, he threw a two yard pass to DHB and thus ended another possession. Next series, he threw a pass to DHB before he had even made his break. Woodson cut off his route and intercepted it. Next possession he threw a risky pass to Schilens that was nearly intercepted. On the Raiders' final drive of the first half, Palmer led them all the way to the 14 yard line before throwing a pass in traffic in the endzone where it was intercepted again.
In the second half, the Raiders would score twice but Palmer really wasn't much better. He could have saved a touchdown when Marcel Reece fumbled, but he couldn't manage to simply fall on the ball and wrap it up. The result was another Packer touchdown. The next series ended with a three and out when Palmer threw wide for Louis Murphy. He threw too high in traffic for Murphy to end the next drive and nearly got Murphy seriously injured. His final three plays were a low incompletion, a high incompletion and getting hit as he threw for interception.
DHB was the Top Baller last week. This week he started out the game looking like he might make the rare Top Baller to Top Buster leap. He dropped two passes on the Raiders' second drive. The second one was the final play of the drive. If he had caught it, the Raiders could have been in field goal range or perhaps close enough to try for more. The next drive ended with another drop by DHB. To start the second quarter, he was sent on a go route but didn't make any attempt to disguise it, and as a result was blanketed by his defender and it was nearly intercepted. The series ended two plays later when he caught a two yard pass on third and six. The next Raider possession ended in two plays when DHB was completely schooled by Charles Woodson right off the line as Woodson cut off his route and intercepted the pass. The Packers would use the short field to score their fourth TD of the day. Funny thing is, DHB actually led the Raiders in receiving with 5 catches for 78 yards. But after that first half, who cares?
If you read the Chuck Bresnahan breakdown above, you have a pretty good idea of Mitchell's day. He is a liability on this team. Since choosing him in round two of the '09 draft, the team has never really found a good place for him. In this game, for the Packers, the number 34 looked like a target symbol. As I said, for the broader picture on that, read the Bresnahan description. Here are the lowlights.
He was blocked like a mosquito on the 47 yard touchdown run for the first Packer touchdown. Next drive, he was sent on a blitz and whiffed on the sack. Then on the next play he gave up the catch for a first down. The Packers scored their second TD a few plays later. Next Packer touchdown drive came in the second quarter on a drive in which he was late on a seven yard first down run. He did have a nice interception in the end zone just before half time. It was part luck and part skill. He was lucky because he wasn't playing the ball and just reached up into the face of the receiver. The skill was pulling the ball in and getting possession inbounds for a touchback. It was a great play on an otherwise terrible day for this third year safety.
While the turnovers weren't killing the Raiders, the offensive line play was. The Raiders' second drive ended with four bad plays by the offensive line—two by Barnes. With the Raiders in first and 20, he had one of his patented false starts. Then on the next play he was beaten by his man to give up a run stuff tackle for no gain. He later gave up the hit on Carson Palmer as he threw for the game ending interception.
He didn't record an actual statistic in this game. He was only seen a couple of times. The first was getting blocked to open the huge hole that Ryan Grant sprinted through for his 47 yard touchdown run. The second one was the primary reason he is a Buster this week. When the Packers rushed to the line to catch the Raiders in a 12 men on the field penalty, it was Seymour who was leisurely walking off the field. The free play was a 37 yard touchdown bomb. Last week he was too emotional and punching opposing players, and this week he just didn't seem to care. Can we find a happy medium, Richard?
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honestly, our season is coming down to the biggest trade of the year (per hue), carson has got to be the man! even without mcfadden, moore practices today and hopefully he plays. he along with murphy and bey and reece can give us enough with our remaining schedule i believe. now defensively, somebody has to come up big for 3 weeks, seymour, routt or wimbley & mcclain! detroit cant run the ball, though they haven't palyed us yet, and last week the vikes almost beat them without ap and put up a ton of yards and points. they also held megatron to 3 or 4 catches, and their secondary is terrible! time for guys to dig in for 3 weeks and our leaders on both sides need to lead us their, seymour and palmer! as always, GO RAIDERS!!!!!!!!! lets get it!
I struggle to be too hard on the D today. Rodgers "only" completed about 55% of his passes for 280 yards. That's way down on his season averages. It was probably his worst game of the season. In truth, the linebackers and corners, safeties, did a great job. The offense just didn't perform.
@ChristopherMooney If the Defense did a great job then I'd hate to see what a bad job scoreline looks like!!! 31 points in one half and they rested Rodgers at the end of the third! So by your reckoning a bad defensive performance would probably be conceding 50+ in one half???!!!! Let's face it Chris we sucked, both Offense and Defense. Dont get me wrong- I'm happy to have a winning record and still be in the hunt for the AFC West. But if we do manage by some miracle to take it to the playoffs, we look a one and done team right now.
@JarrodRollins Fair comment. But some of the drives they went the whole length of the field and they scored every possession. Any way you look at it that's not good Defense. There is no way in the world Chris can say that most of our D played 'great' when your looking at a points total like that in just one half.
When this season began I had no dilusions about going to the Superbowl this year. All I wanted was to see a steady building off of last year. A winning season and a shot at the division at year end. We can still do that, and I wll be satisfied and hopeful for next year.
Next year I think we have alot to be hopeful for. Palmer will have a full training camp, we will have our playmakers back and healthy, and hopefully we will have a new defensive coordinator. With a copule of tweeks on the defense, we should be a real competitor next year.
I consider the spot we are in right now to be the product of injuries on the offensive side of the ball, and the DC on the defensive side of the ball. Hopefully one of these will heal in time to still make a dfiference this year. The other, well like I said, I just want to see overall improvement from last year.
Bring back Romanowski! Honestly we need linebacker depth and he can't perform any worse than some of these guys!
@LeviDamien i read every week. won't read unless u tell me there are ZERO Ballers, cuz they all sucked!
they fucking suck. i see them finishing 7-9 for a season with so much potential and looking worse than they did last year
@raider lifer You see them losing the the Chiefs again?
@DevonRaiderUK@Raider i like heyer also and really believed he would replace barnes as the starter at rt. especially since he was the rt in washington for as few years so he's got way more experience at the position than does bitch-ass barnes. and i'm with you on that mystery why the hell not is campbell not suited up each sunday. i'm stumped
@Raider lifer Heyer's impressed me when he's played this year. Whether or not they would get a job on another team is irrelevant. The point being is that at least could one of them should get on the field here. And the other, Campbell, a super fast mega strong freak should at least be suited when the likes of Barnes are rubbish.
@JarrodRollins seriously. they would probably be nothing more than back-ups on any other team
@nilbymouth And we have Stephon Heyer who's a much better player than Barnes and Carlisle, who cant get a start at RG or RT. Also Bruce Campbell who doesn't even get to suit up.
Whats most disappointing is that we let Erik Pears go who we had as a potential starting RT and has been playing extremely well for the Bills this season on their rejuvenated OL that they just re-signed him to a 5 year deal I believe it was! And instead we got stuck with Barnes
@JarrodRollinsHe was known as KaWhif in Jax for good reason. I just dont get why we persevere with bums like him, Kwaime Harris, Barry Sims when it's obvious to all they aren't up to the job. Turnstiles the lot of them.
@raider lifer Mind-boggling that Barnes, along with Satele, is still even on the team.
I am thinking that HuJack is pulling a Tom Cable and is doing more than he can handle. Here is a thought I was having... What if we hire Todd Haley as OC and have him call plays. He was very good as AZ's play-caller before he took the KC gig. With hiring Haley, change Saunders title to Offensive Consultant, which is more accurate for what he really does for the team now. Fire Chuck Bresnahan and fire him now. Then bring in Jack Del Rio or if possible, Winston Moss when the Packer's season is over in Feb. I like Jack for the personnel that we have now, but I would be very curious to see how we'd do as a 3-4 defense with Moss as DC and if we'd sign a few players to help with the change in scheme.
I would like to see if Haley could do for Palmer, Ford and Moore what he did with Warner, Fitz and Boldin. I know that Ford and Moore are not of the same caliber as Fitz and Boldin, they are not even the same type of WR, but I am still curious to say the least. Not to mention, AZ never really had a running game to compliment their passing attack.
Lastly, we will likely lose RB coach Kelly Skipper to the Fresno State HC gig. Who will replace him and I think we should still replace WR coach Sanjay Lal. Hmm, Tim Brown as WR coach anyone? lol. Also, now that Al has passed away, do you think the team might take Gannon's offer to help the team, if it is still on the table?
@JarrodRollins Al Saunders has way too much experiencew to get thrown in the backseat in favor of Todd Haley. I don't think Hue would disrespect him like that.
@LDizzle The reason I went with Haley as OC and play-caller is cuz Saunders is known for his massive, 1000-page playbook. I think that could be too much for an offense that is trying to find a groove and build chemistry. I think that Saunders should most of his time working with Palmer and helping to game-plan. I think Haley would be a good fit cuz I don't think he'd make things too complicated for the offense to learn. I am not suggesting that Saunders be thrown to the backseat at all, but rather do what he does best and that is work with the QB.
Another asswhipping or two on the order of what we've seen these last two games may make that question academic for an entirely different reason. Hue's seat may not be officially hot, but with everyone and their mother knowing the Raiders desperately need a GM, and two resounding, RESOUNDING ass-whippings in the last two weeks, too much more gas on the fire and an incoming GM may decide to take charge from the top down.
@ChristopherMooney@LDizzle@JarrodRollins Uh, no thanks on Shanny, but if we go down by 5 TDs again, I won't protest if Hue gets jacked. If both of those things come to pass, and we get a GM with a "no bullshit" coach like Cowher*, then so be it.
*I think that Cowher is somewhat overrated, since the one SB he won was easily the WORST Super Bowl I have ever seen--including all of the absolute curb-stompings that are so frequent in those games--because neither team wanted to win that game. Still, can't mess with his record of getting teams into the playoffs, and can't mess with the toughness of his teams, either.
despite everything, we need mcfadden, moore and ford back. it changes our offense so completely. alot of things change for us when we can put that 3 some together. we had a glimpse in the chargers game and that was without dmac! also. i still like our chances to make the playoffs. we of course have to win out, we need denver to lose to the pats(they will), and i believe the week after the jets to lose to the giants (they will). the bengals still have the ravens to go, so we could be okay! i just got a funny feeling we make it. even if dmac is out for the stretch run (which i heard), ford gives us field position and a serious threat deep (not bey), and moore may be our best all around receiver and i think carsons favorite. i kinda think hue was saving these guys for the last 3 games, but if one of those receivers cant go by wednesday, t.o. anyone? hue has rolled the dice the any other time, so why not now!
Levi, you are definitely right when you say that Louis Murphey should get the ball more. He possesses a great skillset, and the Raiders need to call more plays for him. The offense moved the ball so much better when he was involved, and I was very surprised that it took so long for Hue to run plays for him . Unfortunately, I see Hue Jackson trying to run the passing attack way to much around DHB, and this does not make sense to me at all. DHB is a complimentary type receiver, not a go to guy, and with (2) TD receptions to his name this year, and his inability to make plays on the long ball, he is not the guy that Hue should have Palmer focus on...It is this offensive focus on DHB that I believe is causing Palmer problems at QB, and if Jackson does not add more wrinkles to the passing game, the Raider passing attack will continue to suffer. This is by no means any disrespect to DHB, but his improvement this year has made many think he is a pro-bowl type receiver, and the reality is that he is a good short yardage guy but nowhere near a pro-bowl type impact player....
@SpartacusI think Hue reacts (knee jerk). If you recal, that's how DHB got into the line -up. Then Moore got hurt and DHB's role has changed. I don't think Hue will alter it again until his knee starts jerking :)
Seymour as been nothing but average all year. I can see no real reason for his play this year as nothing else but maybe he was a Cable guy? He sure seems to have responded that way with his lack of effort this year.
Personally I look at some of the personal decisions made this recently and I think these are really going to come back and haunt his in the long run.
Huff did not deserve his contract given (this money should have been spent on extending the contract of Branch who in my mind is easily our best DB).
Barnes should never have been bought back to this team. He is well past his prime and has been on a decline for the last few years now.
Palmer was overpaid for. Money wise and what was surrendered to get him. If Peyton Manning gets traded this off season I would be surprised if the Colts even get two firsts for Manning. And Palmer is not even close to being anywhere near Manning.
Maybe it's me, but it seems that ever since Campbell went down, this team has lost all it's pride and passion. He may not have had the best skills of all the QBs around (I personally still rate him higher than Palmer) but he seemed to have the same sort of following that Gradkowski did, where the team responds to him. And not just the offense either.
I am also starting to have my doubts over Jackson as a HC. Same coaches are just better suited as OC or DC and I think Jackson may be one of them. Again I just don't think the team responds to him. Maybe he is just trying to take to much on himself, but I don't know, some change is needed. And don't even get me started on Chuck!
@nilbymouth Seymour played well against the Broncos on the opener but has disappeared of late. And I'm not exactly sure why but it could be an age thing. At 32 he has seen it, done it and has absolutely nothing to prove. He's financially sorted for life and is in the first year of a 2yr $30 mill contract. It could well be the desire, or the performance, just aint there any more. Maybe the years catching up with him and the younger opponents getting faster and stronger. I played in the amateur leagues of SW England for 12 years but got my ass kicked in a game at the age of 30. Enough was enough. It happens to everybody at some time, and Seymour is no exception. At least from Jacksons post game quotes he knows that Seymours performance wasn't good. The spotlight is very much on him and he has to 'find' it and know. Same should apply to Kelly also.
Maybe it is age, but to have such a dramatic drop off this year from last is crazy. Maybe he has been playing with an undisclosed injury. Who knows, but things need to change. We can't have our defense leader playing like this. We could have re-signed Asomugha for the same contract and I would expect our defense would have been a lot better.
@ChristopherMooney You pay him $15 million a year and you want him to have more plays off! Wow. I think Oaklands rotation has been plenty good enough this year. So good that Henderson and Bryant have been outplaying Seymour and Kelly in recent games.
@nilbymouth Considering Hue's reluctance to play the injured Offensive play-makers at the moment I'm not buying the injury excuse. Agree with everything else tho'
Funny how people see games entirely differently. Steve Corkran on the Mercury has got Mitchell down as having a good game! I'll never be sure why we ever drafted him when we already had one of the best SS in Tyvon Branch. And he has done absolutely nothing to show why he was worth that 2nd round pick.
Totally agree with the Jackson comments. I felt that if the Giants had pounded Jacobs more they would have beat the Packers. In truth the Raiders dont have anything more than an average team right now and their record reflects that. Too many issues:
DHB cant catch and the Raiders look more threatening when he is off the field. Satele, Carlisle and Barnes can only sustain blocks long enough if they have searing speed behind them i.e. McFadden. Kelly & Seymour massively overpaid and aren't even troubling the statisticians- the heart of the defensive problems. McClain is only good going forward. Huff has never been the ball magnet you want at FS and has been outplayed by Giordano.
Painful truth is we are pinning our hopes on an unproven, injury prone McFadden. And the other problems we cant resolve as we have no draft next year.
Aaron Rodgers had his worst game of the season, by far. Oakland kept him under 300 yards, and a completion % of about 55%. That's by far his worst game this year.
Oakland's D handled him very very well. Probably the best of any team since Chicago in the championship game.
You know, put things in perspective. For Oakland to win this, the D had to keep Rodgers under control, and the Offense had to put up 30+ points. The D did their job. We lost because of turnovers
He also only played around 3 Quarters of football and they weren't required to keep out scoring us as their defense stepped up / our offense turned to custard!
Right now I think we seem to have about 4 players I think are playing hard every play: Bryant, Henderson, Curry and Branch. And while Curry is always playing hard he does make a lot of mistakes.
@ChristopherMooney No way- see above
I agree about Branch. I have always thought he has been one of our most under valued players. People seem to expect him to cover everyone from posts I read. Whenever one of our other DBs has blown coverage, Branch is giving it his all to chase that man down while all the other defenders seem to just be standing and watching!
I also think it says something about our personal decisions when our big money earning safety (Huff) is being outplayed by someone who really was bought in to be a camp body (Giordano). It's a similar situation on our DL to with Dez Bryant being our best and most consistant player on the DL all year.
@nilbymouth Definitely. Our #1 draft choices have been way more miss than hit when you look down through the history. DHB and McClain have bust written all over them to me. Neither of them look naturals at their position. If McClain doesn't pan out (and I'm sure he wont) he could be a DE project. He's so much more effective going forward. McFadden is the only #1 in recent years to look the part and that's only been since last year. Since the year 2000 we've only had 3 standout # 1 picks. One of them's a kicker, and the other, Aso, we let walk. That's a crap return for your chance to get the cream. Check out the Steelers draft history and it's scary! So now we have to mortgage the farm to get the likes of Palmer to try and keep us in the hunt. And everybody knows that the 'get rich quick' routine doesn't work. I know your views on Palmer and I can see why Hue wanted him as Boller wont be in the NFL next year. But the price we paid was way, way OTT. But with Davis now gone we need somebody to really sort out the drafting situation in future.
This may be wishful thinking, but I can't dodge the feeling that this is a lot like the '98 Raiders. A coaching change, a hot start, and an utter inability to survive injuries, complete with a collapse down the stretch. The collapse isn't complete, but it's hard to shake the feeling that this team could stagger to 8-8.
Then again, the last time the team staggered its way to back-to-back 8-8 seasons, they embarked on their last period of genuine greatness, so maybe it's just a matter of getting some housecleaning done? McKenzie bringing over Winston Moss to DC, say, if we can start wishfully thinking, revamping the defensive scheme to maximize how the players can be used to the best of their abilities and to relieve some of the stacking--is it just me, or are a number of the Raiders' problems on that side of the ball directly related to the fact that they've essentially doubled up on good to very good (and in some cases great) talent at about half of the positions, but are playing people out of position at the other half? Why do we have so many replicative D-linemen, for example? Why do we have so many of one type of safety, but none of the other? Why have we hamstrung ourselves at all of the LB positions?
Watching these guys play, even when they're playing hard--and while there wasn't enough of that on Sunday, there was at least some, unlike last week--some of these guys are being asked to do something they just cannot do. It's not quite a realization fo the jokes about Russell moving to ORT, but it's not altogether different, either.
@ams2fx Jackson has the perception that you need to have size at LBer and D-Line to stop the run problems which have plagued us year after year. Yes size and strength is important to fight off the block but you have to have the wheels downstairs to go with it. If a guy cant run how's he going to get to the ball carrier? They've got to be able to play. The monster D-Lineman obsession can be harmful to the team if you end up with huge immobile guys like Warren and Sands in the middle. While our guys aren't that bad they're not doing much up front at the moment. I love watching the Giants Defensive Line in action. Tuck, Canty, Pierre-Paul, Osi, Joseph. Now those guys are mobile and active.
I agree, but guys like Tuck, Pierre-Paul, Osi are not that easy to find! They're all 270+ with 4.6 speed. You know, they're physical freaks.
I agree with your general point though. You need athleticism on the line. Guys who can burst through holes. When you just have 4 big guys, it's kind of predictable.
@DevonRaiderUK See, that's what bugs me--the Raiders seem to really want to go to a 3-4 half the time, and they have some of the necessary personnel, but they also want to stick with the 4-3 the other half of the time, and have some of the necessary personnel for that, too. They don't have enough of the right guys to run a true hybrid but they have so many guys with replicative skill sets that they have unnecessary depth in some ways because they can't start enough guys at the proper positions.
And even when they can, who cares? These guys are playing as badly as a defense can play lately. It's hard to overlook the defensive lapses against the Chicago Hainies and the Vikings in the two games before these latest butt-kickings.
By the way, Oakland are horrible tacklers! That's the biggest problem.
The amount of times an Oakland player beats his block, is about to make a huge play, then just misses the tackle - it's amazing!
Oakland had several opportunities for a 3 and out against GB, where GB converted, as Oakland missed the tackle
Oakland needs a new defensive coordinator. You can see what a guy like Wade Phillips does for a good team - makes them potentially great.
I agree with your point about replication - Oakland has no speed at all on their defensive line. Sometimes it's Seymour, Houston, Henderson and Bryant lining up.
You know, the lightest guy there is 300 pounds, and the fastest does about a 4.9 forty!
Most of the best teams have real athleticism somewhere in the line
@ChristopherMooney @ams2fx I think the defensive line philosophy ( just my opinion on the personelle group ) is to overpower the O-line in the run game and collapse the pocket in the pass game. We use Wimbley as a Nickle end who I think is alittle slow for even a D-end. It seems like when we play against teams who use lighter/ athletic O-linemen it works, but when we play more physical O-lines we can't generate any pressure. We should look at a Derek Burgess type hybrid LB/DE for a speed rush when our across the board bull run is neutralized.
@DevonRaiderUK You're right - and i remember how the plays where we had our CB 5-7 yards off LOC made me mad, cause Rodgers could just pluck the D apart! You gotta be able to break the rythm of the plays, and unless Chucky learns how to efficiently make that happen, we will always have issues against the great passing teams of the league!
@Harder2000 It's a good point you make there. Too often in the last couple of game I've seen the 4 basic rushers up front with little or no variety. Stunts, delayed blitzes etc would help and you dont have to bring the house. Jamming the receivers would also disrupt the timing and allow the pressure to get a bit closer. I know the stats say Rodgers shreds the blitz but you've got to do something to disrupt his rhythm. You cant let an elite NFL QB just sit back there and get comfortable.
Yeah, I get your point, and agree. Oakland's D scheme is to collapse the pocket from the front 4, and get pressure up the middle.
I sort of just meant, that isn't going to work endlessly. Most of the best lines have a lot of variation in their front 4, so teams have no idea where the pressure will come from.
@DevonRaiderUK By "have it" i meant speed, not that we were getting it done or anything.. I don't disagree with the notion that we don't make it happen at the moment!
Would say that Moss has been decent though, as a situational player that is! Wimbley is a solid speedrusher and good DE for us!
Don't think we have the quality that the Giants do, but we have a good group (especially if Shaugh had still been here), and as i see it Chucky doesn't do our line any favours by putting them in bad positions! We don't have a Peppers, Ware, JPP, Wake coming off the corner to consistently create pressure, but that goes for a lot of teams, and Chucky needs to account for that and put the players in situations that fit them the best! Stunt, disguise and isolate the players dependable on what their strengths are - get back to using situational plays more often!
Like the way he uses the LBs to blitz though, albeit he sometimes get carried away and it becomes to obvious..
@Harder2000@DylanAlexander@ChristopherMooney@ams2fx Cant agree with that comment Dylan. Wimbley has been a beast when lined up as End on obvious passing downs. He is one of the few players to apply consistent pressure this season. The other DE's you mention Harder have been non-factors. Scott has good speed but is not a physical player and has done nothing. Moss has offered little more. Cant remember the last time Groves got near a QB. Bryant has shown himself to be a force and has done well when he's on the field. Kelly and Seymour are currently MIA. Overall I'd disagree with you when you say we 'have it'. Compared to other dominant D-Lines eg Bears and Giants I don't think we do. When we rush the basic 4 down linemen we don't get anywhere near enough pressure.
@DylanAlexander@ChristopherMooney@ams2fx We have Moss, Scott, Shaughnessey, Wimbley (and actually Groves was a DE coming out of college and has the size and speed to speed rush the edge) who all play end on occasion, and 3 of the 4 are predominantly speedrushers, so it is not that we don't have it, it is more that Chucky utilizes the personnel badly imo.. Great loss that Shaughnessey was put on IR, but we should still have the speed if it is dialled up correctly! Would not mind another great all around end like Shaugh, but they are hard to find, especially since we don't have any draft picks and already have a substantial amount invested in the Dline!
@ams2fx McKenzie and Winston Moss would be my first, second and third choice as well. Though in comparison with Bren anything is an upgrade. Perhaps letting Saunders call the plays may help- not that it would actually happen- I knew two screen passes were coming before the snap, maybe teams have figured out Hue's playcalling. Doesn't help when you don't have an off tackle runner of course- easy to stop the run game when it matters.
@DylanAlexander That bugs me, too--I can sometimes see exactly what a play will be just based on how the team lines up. Surely if *I* can do that and guess correctly much more often than not in certain formations, opposing defenses can do so as well.